paperhanging-digest Friday, September 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 005
In this issue:
Re: PHLIST: now really...humph... [Gtm@aol.com]
Re: PHLIST: Rock the Vote [LDWS1978@aol.com]
Re: PHLIST: now really...humph... [Walter Green <prospeak@mindspring.com>]
Re: PHLIST: now really...humph... [NGarlandba@aol.com]
Re: PHLIST: To CP or not CP [NGarlandba@aol.com]
PHLIST: That's Morron, not 'Morran' [morron@ns.vvm.com]
Re: PHLIST: now really...humph... [morron@ns.vvm.com]
PHLIST: can i can i [Jimgrum@aol.com]
Re: PHLIST: now really...humph... [Tapezierer@aol.com]
PHLIST: Whose primer do you REALLY like? [gail cox <wallpro@paperhanging.]
PHLIST: Guild Holiday [jparodi@warwick.net]
Re: PHLIST: Guild Holiday [tliv@ptd.net]
PHLIST: COUNTERPOINT [KELBELKING@aol.com]
Re: PHLIST: now really...humph... [gail cox <wallpro@paperhanging.com>]
----------------------------------------------------------------- -----
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:11:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gtm@aol.com
Subject: Re: PHLIST: now really...humph...
Gail you started the list, I am calm ...but I am Dutch-Cuban and the latin in
me makes me say what I think.
When Mr Parodi starts the discussion about CP and so much complaining goes on
then I think I had the right to say what I thought.
My experience with the Guild has been great even though there are some
problems, and again: I don't care who is CP or not. When I go into a
prospective customer's home I tell them about the Guild and what it
means...believe me I get the job 99% of the time and at a higher price than
my competitor.
If members want to make changes they must make them from within the
organization. We have a new board (every member got a ballot and voted) and
I believe that if members have gripes then they should address them to the
new board. If there are any crooks then we must get rid of them but let's
have it documented for all to see.
I don't ever want to stifle the right of anyone to have their say......you
see I had to do that in Cuba after Castro came into Havana in 1959. The
greatest thing about this country (my country now) is that everybody has a
right to have their say.
Thanks for the invite at the porch, don't eat much steak at my age ,chicken
will be fine....you know when you get old like me chicken helps the arteries
stay open.
I'd like to meet you in person sometime soon. Ask anyone that really knows me
, I am not this serious but about 5% of the time.
Gerard
Gtm@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:01:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: LDWS1978@aol.com
Subject: Re: PHLIST: Rock the Vote
For the record. When programs are initiated within the organization and it
has been recommended by the leadership (who has been voted in) I feel it
doesn't warrent a vote from the membership. The purpose of a Board is to
lead the organization representing our common interest, paperhanging craft.
Along the way we develope relationships with the trade related industry.
There are many parts that make up the wallcovering industry and paperhangers
are just one part. The CP program was started in my opinion to show the
industry even though we are independent business people the idea was to let
them know we are experts in our field. The NGPP was started on this
premises. The CP was just another step to add clout to our profession. I
myself am a CP, however the concept is fine, the process to which we
assertain the status definetly needs work. We need to put more emphasis on
experience, education, envolvement in our assocation and other trade related
programs and a test should only be a small part of the program but necessary
to put credibility with the program. Nothing wrong with the idea of CP.
What we need is an agenda that going through a process and earning the
status of CP will mean something . Call it jumping through hoops, whatever,
a program such is this should be based on your experience and knowledge as a
highly skilled paperhanger . Minimual hanging experience and book knowledge
is not the answer. The program should be a combination of above metioned but
emphasize on the skill in various wallcoverings, not just one or two types.
A test study book should be written by the experts who have demonstrated and
is recognized in the industry. What I'm suggesting is The John Cox, ASPA,
Stan Warshaw, USSPH, Bob Kelly, Showroom Handbook for Wallpaper Installation,
Dan Jackson, GENCORP, David Groff, Complete Guide to Wallpapering, Jim
Turner, Paperhanger, writer for Trade Magazines, (out of print- Modern
Wallcoverings, by Guy Cooper and Selwyn Mills) experts in various
adhesive/primer industry, tools/equipment should be commision to come
together and write the text for the CP program. Talk about clout!! Name
recognition and respect in their area of expetise will put meat in the
program. Does it cost, you bet. Will it be worth it? You decide.
Bottom-line if such a program is to exist and those who want to have the
status as CP will know it will take time with alot of hard work and resources
(money). The CP is a program for all professional paperhangers,not a benefit
for being a member of the NGPP.
Larry Duval, President
Atlant Chapter
LDWS1978@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:20:21 -0400
From: Walter Green <prospeak@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: PHLIST: now really...humph...
Did you say Steak?
Johnny will
>throw on a steak...anyone else game?
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:59:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: NGarlandba@aol.com
Subject: Re: PHLIST: now really...humph...
Please remove my name from your mailing lists. Thankyou
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:29:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: NGarlandba@aol.com
Subject: Re: PHLIST: To CP or not CP
Please remove my name from your mailing lists.
Thankyou Nancy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:24:46 +0000
From: morron@ns.vvm.com
Subject: PHLIST: That's Morron, not 'Morran'
Sorry, we professional paperhangers are just sticklers for detail ;-)
> why didn't the regular guild emblem do the same thing?
It does. The CP designation is an *extra* that just enhances
it... you know, like wrapping switchplates on an already-papered
wall :-) I have a friend whose chosen profession is law. For many
years he has practiced, with many diplomas displayed on his walls
(which is good... they covered up a really bad wallcovering job...
must've been done by a *non-CP*, haw haw haw). His specialty
has always been real estate law... however, he was never *Board Certified*
in real estate law. That is, until a couple of years ago, when he
finally decided to pay the money and take the exam. Then guess what?
Bingo! His practice was enhanced. Does he really know any more
about real estate law than before? The answer is *no*, but his
practice has increased nevertheless.
> Does the word CERTIFIED carry that much weight?
Yep... sure seems to, at least in *my* neck of the woods.
> If so and being a CP is primarly a marketing tool why not
just put that word on the regular guild logo?
Note the word 'primarily'. It isn't a marketing tool *only*. It
*is* also designed to provide an upward goal for paperhangers, and it
is intended to show the paperhanger's proficiency... for marketing use,
not for the sake of clobbering others. (By the way, I personally feel that
anyone who is intimidated by someone else's certifications, or anyone
who uses their own certifications to lord over their peers needs to
start seeing a *Certified* psychologist on a regular basis ;-)) This
is where most of the improvements need to be made. And,
Certification does (and should) involve an extra investment of time
and money, over and above membership. Actually, the CP Program is
available to paperhangers who are *not* NGPP members as well as
members... most are likely unaware of that.
> The NDPA does that. Shoot I mean the PDRA...
They don't just automatically give those certifications out. To
obtain their CWC (Certified Wallcoverings Consultant), along with
their other paint and window treatment certifications, you have to
pay money and take a test which covers study material which they
provide. (sound familiar?)
> ... does it increase your income if one of those installers who
wasn't worth a hill of beans gets the CP and lives in your town?
Interesting question, the answer to which I don't know. My guess is
that it would put a big dent in the credibility of it. There are actually
procedures for reporting CP's bad performance... the designation can
be suspended or revoked (though I doubt that has ever happened).
> Would there be a problem in letting the membership vote on this issue?
I don't know... the one to ask would be Norman Meunier... write him
to find out (it's why I included his e-mail address, phone #, etc.).
He is appealing to all of you for constructive input.
> There must be some downside to that if it hasn't been done.
That is an 'assumption'... know what people around here say about
'assuming'? ;-)
> Don't you think that everyone will feel better about it if a vote was taken?
Perhaps most will... that is, *if* it should be subject to a vote.
Fact of the matter is, no matter what is done to please
everybody, there will *always* be those who complain (debate,
whatever you want to call it), just for the sake of complaint.
I don't necessarily agree that it *should* be put up to a vote. For
one thing, too many people have invested the time and money to
become Certified, and would raise nine kinds of hell (myself included).
> ...if the guild had voting they would also have to have an open
> and free press so everyone could hear both sides before the vote....
I don't know that the guild is as repressive as you imply... you make
it sound as if we're a bunch of commies. The guild, or any such
group, is only as good and as strong as its members. I, for one,
will admit that I've received ballots in the mail to vote on guild
matters, where I've let the time slip away and never got a 'round
tuit'... I'm guilty. Perhaps this thing *was* voted on, and most of
the membership sat in oblivion, starring at the 'boob-tube', and let
it slip by. It ain't the board's fault that major issues are
generally decided by a small number of active voters (compare the
number of actual voters to total population in presidential
elections, for instance). And insofar as the 'press' thing goes... I
can remember being president of a herpetological society (herpetology is the
science of reptiles and amphibians... boy, now I'm REALLY asking to
get bashed!) for 2 years. We had nearly 100 active members,
and we could RARELY get people to take the time to sit down and write
articles of any substance for submission to our newsletter. People
mostly want to sit back and enjoy (or complain about) all this neat stuff,
while a dedicated few actually do the work.
Please take your legitimate concerns and complaints about this
Program to Norman. If you enjoy a good 'debate', that's fine... but
if you want anything to actually get done, take it to the proper
place, and present it in constructive fashion.
I'll write more later... some of us gotta work ;-)
Clyde
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:09:19 +0000
From: morron@ns.vvm.com
Subject: Re: PHLIST: now really...humph...
> p.s. Gerald...want to come up and sit on my big porch and rock and
> discuss this stuff? somehow things look so much calmer when you are
> rockin... we probably agree on more than we disagree on... Johnny will
> throw on a steak...anyone else game?
What!! This sounds like... like corporate bribery!! Shame on you!!
;-)
Clyde
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:16:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jimgrum@aol.com
Subject: PHLIST: can i can i
In response to norman Meunier recent letter:
I wanna be a "SUPER SUPER BORDER AND SWITCHPLATE C.P PHD."
CAN I, CAN I, HUH, HUH, CAN I
happy trails
jim grumbley
L.A. CHAPTER
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:44:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tapezierer@aol.com
Subject: Re: PHLIST: now really...humph...
Gail,
His name is GeraRd.
David Veith
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 18:23:52 -0400
From: gail cox <wallpro@paperhanging.com>
Subject: PHLIST: Whose primer do you REALLY like?
I am curious about the wallcovering uncoaters that most folks really like
and why. Which ones do you think are DOGS?
Name brands please.
gail cox
Please visit our site at
http://www.paperhanging.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:26:47 -0700
From: jparodi@warwick.net
Subject: PHLIST: Guild Holiday
I propose a one or two day moratorium on Guild related matters. Not that
I donít enjoy discussing them, but just so that we can trick those who
are just tuning in into thinking that this is paperhangerís chat not
just Guild chat. Any one second that?
Hey! How about those borders. I had one a few months ago and I really
couldnít decide what was up or down. It was one of those asymmetrical
things with a dark color on the bottom (or is it the top) and a light
color on the top (etc.). Nobody was home of course. Just try explaining
it over the phone to the customer about what the heck you are talking
about. She couldnít remember what was up or down. The book was not in
the store for reference. There were no grapes hanging down, no vines
growing up. Donít you hate when that happens. I hung it with the darker
color on the bottom since dark it ìweightierî to me and just by
chance
turned out to be right.
A paperhanger friend just gave me that ìBorderís Edgeî tool
for inlaying
borders. Anybody got one/use one. Any tips for us Luddites.
And how about inlaying borders. I find myself rarely overlaying borders
on the sidewall paper. I overlay only when removal of the first sidewall
strip is not possible. It is usually a paper-paper and evaporation has
caused it to dry already. I still recommend Muralo 8900 for itís ability
to not rewet for many hours (at least 8) so that inlaying is a breeze
with vinyls. Do people around the US inlay for the most part? Is Muralo
available in most areas? The reason I ask is that it is distributed in
spots around here but certainly not everywhere. I have to drive to NJ
(about 35 mins. ) to stock up.
Apropos of nothing: If my truck hit a bump and one tool fell out, the
item that I would miss most is my radio. I'm sure there are those who
feel the same way about their beaten up paste-encrusted appliance. I
usually listen to Talk Radio but sometimes I play music loud if there's
nobody home. I used to go through one radio per year until I bought a
JVC in 1990. I would enter it in any competition for the ugliest, most
decrepit looking boom box ever to go through the paperhanging wars yet
it refuses to die.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:29:26 -0500
From: tliv@ptd.net
Subject: Re: PHLIST: Guild Holiday
I amen the request 10 fold. I will admit however that after reading all the
diatribes on to be or not to be I would like to become a CP. The bit about
blowing the charlatan hangers out of the picture with the tag really sells
me. How do I become a CP? Tom
At 06:26 PM 25-09-97 -0700, you wrote:
>I propose a one or two day moratorium on Guild related matters. Not that
>I donít enjoy discussing them, but just so that we can trick those
who
>are just tuning in into thinking that this is paperhangerís chat
not
>just Guild chat. Any one second that?
>
>Hey! How about those borders. I had one a few months ago and I really
>couldnít decide what was up or down. It was one of those asymmetrical
>things with a dark color on the bottom (or is it the top) and a light
>color on the top (etc.). Nobody was home of course. Just try explaining
>it over the phone to the customer about what the heck you are talking
>about. She couldnít remember what was up or down. The book was not
in
>the store for reference. There were no grapes hanging down, no vines
>growing up. Donít you hate when that happens. I hung it with the
darker
>color on the bottom since dark it ìweightierî to me and just
by chance
>turned out to be right.
>A paperhanger friend just gave me that ìBorderís Edgeî
tool for inlaying
>borders. Anybody got one/use one. Any tips for us Luddites.
>And how about inlaying borders. I find myself rarely overlaying borders
>on the sidewall paper. I overlay only when removal of the first sidewall
>strip is not possible. It is usually a paper-paper and evaporation has
>caused it to dry already. I still recommend Muralo 8900 for itís
ability
>to not rewet for many hours (at least 8) so that inlaying is a breeze
>with vinyls. Do people around the US inlay for the most part? Is Muralo
>available in most areas? The reason I ask is that it is distributed in
>spots around here but certainly not everywhere. I have to drive to NJ
>(about 35 mins. ) to stock up.
>
>Apropos of nothing: If my truck hit a bump and one tool fell out, the
>item that I would miss most is my radio. I'm sure there are those who
>feel the same way about their beaten up paste-encrusted appliance. I
>usually listen to Talk Radio but sometimes I play music loud if there's
>nobody home. I used to go through one radio per year until I bought a
>JVC in 1990. I would enter it in any competition for the ugliest, most
>decrepit looking boom box ever to go through the paperhanging wars yet
>it refuses to die.
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.livingstonpainting.com
Email tliv@ptd.net
717-738-9959 Fax 717-738-9959
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:21:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: KELBELKING@aol.com
Subject: PHLIST: COUNTERPOINT
>From Michael J Kelly, President,
The National Guild of Professional Paperhangers
Jim Parodi wrote :
<<1) Corruption (If this is too strong a word what would you call
it?)>>
I have had personal relationships with many of the national leadership since
the Watzel administration. I have been a National Board member for 9 years
as a Trustee, Convention Chairman Ist Vice President and now National
President.
Is corruption too strong a word? It is an absurd word to use in this
context.
Of all the people I have known, many are good friends, others are valued
aquaintances. All of them, each and every one, are honorable. There are no
exceptions. I often have disagreed with many of them, and some of those
disagreements have been passionate. Each and every one has acted as they
though they should, and each acted with the welfare of the Guild in mind.
There have been mistakes, but they were honest mistakes and when they were
identified, many were rectified. None of these men and women are
professional organization managers. They are all paperhangers. The training
is all on the job.
All of them have spent enormous amounts of time away from their work and
their families to do the tasks they are called upon to do. They are not paid.
Theirs is a labor of love. For whatever their reasons, all of them love what
they do. Each one of them has an ego, and sometimes those egos clash.
Each has a vision, an idea of how it ought to be. And each is working toward
that ideal.
They are not doing this for the recognition, for the kudos nor for the
thanks. There is a noticable absence of all of these. What they hear is
that they are doing a terrible job, that they are corrupt, that they are in
bed with the manufacturers. They hear these things from people who say they
don't like what's being done, but don't have any constructive ideas on how
it should be done.
<<Why do we accept $2500/year for our disability fund from Zinsser?>>
You would better ask the lady who shattered her leg in a fall while loading
her paste boards into her truck, and was faced with losing her home, or
perhaps the man whose premature baby died after a lengthy, expensive
treatment. And then thereís the husband and wife whose home burned. They
were uninjured but their loss was extensive. They were all recipients of cash
awards that made a difference. All were Guild members.
We accept Zinssers' money because it is offered. Many thousands of dollars
have been given, with no strings, to members who have suffered catastrophic
losses. This is not publicized outside of our organization, so it seems to
me that as an advertising dollar, it is not well spent.
<<(and then endorse Zinsser by name on our Lincrusta/Anaglypta hanging
instructions when we donít endorse anything else by brandname)>>
The Guild did not write that brochure.
Lincrusta specified Zinssers' and ShurStik's products in the original
document. Before the Guild would approve the hanging instructions in the
brochure, they were examined by a committee of skilled paperhangers (not a
simple task). These instructions were pulled apart and reassembled into
something that made sense and it was required of Lincrusta that all
references to brand name products be followed by the words "or an equivalent
product."
<<2)More Corruption--Why does Zinsser sponsor our web site? >>
Michael DiGilio, Regional Director and National Board Member, and a few
others, thought it would be a great idea for the Guild to have a website.
Because of lack of funds, (an eternal problem) he was turned down by the
Board. But he persisted, and finally the Board said he could have his website
if it didn't cost the Guild any money. DiGilio and I sought sponsorship from
all our national associates. The response was tepid at best. Zinsser said
okay. Without their support, the website would not exist.
<<3) During Tech tours why are questions and comments by members
pre-screened. Is someone afraid that something of substance may actually be
uttered?>>
There is not nor has there ever been prescreening of questions at the
TechTours. It is a free and open forum.The questions are taken from the
audience in "real time"
This I know. I have attended 12 of them .
<<4)When is our slate of national candidates going to become less
Orwellian and include a loyal opposition? If our organization isnít
going to be democratic then stop sending silly-ass one party ballots out
every year--send them to some Peopleís Republic somewhere.>>
We do not have parties in the Guild, and therefore we have no slates. Any
individual who is qualified (see by-laws) may run for any position. The
reason you have only one choice for some positions is because no one else who
was qualified wanted to run. No one that is qualified to hold a position is
denied, and anyone who wants to run for a position is included on the ballot.
People who are qualified and choose not to run probably have a pretty good
idea of what's involved. Perhaps we will someday see Jim Parodi's name on
that ballot?
"<<5) When are we going to learn about Self-Interest. It is not a
sin to be
motivated by self-interest (even though many people confuse it with
greed). The interests of the Guild overlap with, but arenít the same
as
those of manufacturers and paste suppliers.>>"
Precisely! Some of our interests overlap and do not coincide. Where there is
overlap, we press for betterment of the entire industry. Where there is no
overlap, we then press for our own interests.
Gail wrote, "Unfortuantely the members have to CARE if change is to be
effected...wonder how many really do...?"
It has been my experience that many indeed do. Most chapter members are into
what they are doing on a local level. Each and every chapter is different.
Gail wrote, "The current president of the guild is on this list...I WONDER
WHY HE ISN'T RESPONDING?"
I have been on the road with a heavy schedule lately, just got home and
checked my E- mail. You people are prolific writers. I like what I'm reading
to a point. I am printing these list offerings and I will take them to the
Board meeting in a couple of weeks. This is becoming a extraordinary venue
for paperhanger's issues. I will be making changes and most of all, I want
unity and to strengthen our trade!
Regards,
Mike Kelly
Kelbelking@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 00:55:49 -0400
From: gail cox <wallpro@paperhanging.com>
Subject: Re: PHLIST: now really...humph...
>Did you say Steak?
> Johnny will
>>throw on a steak...anyone else game?
>>
So far it is steak and chicken...sounds fine to me...come on up Walter!
gail cox
Please visit our site at
http://www.paperhanging.com
------------------------------
End of paperhanging-digest V1 #5
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